Page 9 of 19 FirstFirst ... 5678910111213 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 185

Thread: End Stage Capitalism

  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,138

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Davo, I am interested in learning more about the anti-statism movement and the concepts. Do you think you could start a separate thread on it? No objections to you posting in this thread but having different discussions in parallel on the same thread can be confusing.

    I have encountered proponents of anti-statism online a number of times on other forums and they have failed to present a compelling case. At least from where I was sitting.

  2. Thank button The Irreverent Mr Black, Strato thanked this post
  3. #82
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    3rd Planet from the Sun
    Posts
    8,970

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Quote 142857 said View Post
    Davo, I am interested in learning more about the anti-statism movement and the concepts. Do you think you could start a separate thread on it? No objections to you posting in this thread but having different discussions in parallel on the same thread can be confusing.

    I have encountered proponents of anti-statism online a number of times on other forums and they have failed to present a compelling case. At least from where I was sitting.
    As mentioned there are many differing concepts of what the state means. I can't speak for others, I can only speak for my own position in regard anarchism, which is anti-statist.

    I'm not about preaching any position with a thread, I am just happy to comment on stuff. Personally I find that the arguments for a requirement of the state, and all that we have seen come from it are not compelling either, especially given the vast amount of evidence as to their continued failure to most all of the population. I think the onus is on the other foot.
    Spearthrower: "There are words like vacuous & cunt that are applicable."

    (delta p)*(delta q) >= h/(4*pi) ----- An explanation of Logical Fallacies : http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies ----- ferox deo vacuus vinco ----- How do I post video etc here?

  4. Thank button The Irreverent Mr Black, 142857, Strato thanked this post
  5. #83
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    4,138

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Hi Davo,

    All good.

    There are a couple of hundred countries in the world today, most of which would be considered states. That is a pretty good basis to work from when we want a current definition of "state". It may not be a good definition, but it has lots of examples.

    I agree that states are illegitimate power structures and responsible for an enormous amount of harm and injustice. You will not get any argument from me on that. If someone proposes to me that we abolish our existing models of states, then I'm interested in what the alternative is and some reasons why the alternative would be better.

  6. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Quote 142857 said View Post
    Hi Davo,

    All good.

    There are a couple of hundred countries in the world today, most of which would be considered states. That is a pretty good basis to work from when we want a current definition of "state". It may not be a good definition, but it has lots of examples.

    I agree that states are illegitimate power structures and responsible for an enormous amount of harm and injustice. You will not get any argument from me on that. If someone proposes to me that we abolish our existing models of states, then I'm interested in what the alternative is and some reasons why the alternative would be better.
    My two cents on this is that before the American Constitution, politics belonged to the privileged few who happened to be in control of the human fate by divine or muscular rule.

    The extension of that lucky happenstance is the 'democracies' we now witness as being the best of a bad system made well known by Winston Churchill.

    Our leaders are reasonably fucked up because sensible people do not want to be leaders. However, the selfish traits of humanity are somewhat constrained by the 'democratic' system that has evolved and for good reason. The populace, so far, has the ability to replace despots (the example of the USA is proof of that, hopefully) and a form of democracy by the people, for the people keeps us all safe.

    To change this where it is expected that humans will act with good intent towards other for no reward, seems to me to be foolhardy at the best.

    David

  7. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Allow me to add to that. The American Declaration of Independence was more than a statement against British rule of the colonies but it was an expression of human exasperation against the idea of being controlled by privilege. If we veer away from this magnificent compilation of ideas that did not exist prior to its implementation, we risk, no, are certain, to head back to rule by the fringes of an opportunistic humanity that is self motivated without any restraint towards systems that respect no right except those chosen by the elite. This must never happen in western democracies.

    David

  8. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    And to further that: The so called democracies that exist and appear to be working for most will not last. No political system seems to. Our economic and political structures will no doubt collapse at some stage. There will be heroic effort to keep them afloat but ultimately they will be defunct. The big difference between this kind of demise and one that is overseen by fantasy worlds is that big brother wont kill us, we will kill ourselves. Grim, but it can't go on like this forever.

    David

  9. #87
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Shell Cove, NSW
    Posts
    13,263

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    George Washington had 216 slaves in 1786.

    Thomas Jefferson owned over 600 slaves through his adult life.
    Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself.
    - Confucius (551-479 BCE)

  10. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Quote two dogs said View Post
    George Washington had 216 slaves in 1786.

    Thomas Jefferson owned over 600 slaves through his adult life.
    That may have been the case but the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence transcends the frailties of an existing system of slavery.

    i think the original copy which included the slavery conundrum was excluded in the final rendition. All this makes me think that Jefferson did not write the American Declaration of Independence, but it was penned by Thomas Paine. But that is another story which will never be resolved.

    In any case, humans are frail and make mistakes. The human rights expressed in the American Declaration of Independence still hold true. It wouldn't matter if Hitler wrote them.

    David

  11. Like button Strato liked this post
  12. #89
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    All over Victoria
    Posts
    6,060

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Industrial civilisation is not sustainable, it never really was. The future is stateless, whether you like it or not. Preparing for that means developing and modelling cooperation skills. Anarchism is the only sensible political and social practice if you're under 30 or so and have designs on living into old age, in my opinion. There is no hope in industrial political theories within contemporary politics, hope is in communities. So i'm all for socialism, as a way of easing us into a more cooperative way of being and away from the individualism of Western liberalism, but it aint going to save us.

    I don't really look back for inspiration any more. All the old theorists had no inkling of what this century has in store for us.

    Of course, that's all assuming any of us survive at all.
    What’s the use of a fine house if you haven’t a tolerable planet to put it on - Henry David Thoreau

  13. Thank button Strato thanked this post
  14. #90
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    2,253

    Default Re: End Stage Capitalism

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    Industrial civilisation is not sustainable, it never really was. The future is stateless, whether you like it or not. Preparing for that means developing and modelling cooperation skills. Anarchism is the only sensible political and social practice if you're under 30 or so and have designs on living into old age, in my opinion. There is no hope in industrial political theories within contemporary politics, hope is in communities. So i'm all for socialism, as a way of easing us into a more cooperative way of being and away from the individualism of Western liberalism, but it aint going to save us.

    I don't really look back for inspiration any more. All the old theorists had no inkling of what this century has in store for us.

    Of course, that's all assuming any of us survive at all.
    I'd have to disagree with most of that, Pip. The state is only a means of controlled cooperation and it ain't perfect by any means. But I'd like to see some evidence that humans can cooperate in some kind of different manner. The ideal that humans can 'love' each other died in the 60's I think.

    Otherwise, I'm with you.

    David

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •