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Thread: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

  1. #221
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    Had to make a transcript of this. Why Jordan Peterson gets away with saying on air on the ABC Religion and Ethics report that the Dane who lied to the Gestapo to not reveal the Jews hiding in the cellar is going to Hell, because he claimed mixed it up with word soup. But here it is you can listen for yourselves, trying as it might.
    I will paraphrase the interview and then the transcript is below it, and readers can check by listening if they can bear it.
    to paraphrase, Andrew West asks whether in Amsterdam in 1942 that surely the person who lies to the Gestapo to protect the location of Jews hiding in the cellar is a moral person, but Jordan Peterson responds that that person is going to Hell.


    https://www.abc.net.au/radionational...erson/10466962

    The program was first broadcast on April 4th 2018.
    ...
    00:21:50
    Andrew West:
    Jordan Peterson lets wind up by discussing another of the really big moral questions that you throw up period and here it is direct quote above all don't lie. Don't lie about anything ever. Ever?
    Jordan Peterson:
    That would be best. Look a central tenent of the Judeo Christian ethic lets say is the sacredness of the logos, that's communicative speech that the speech that brings order out of chaos, it’s the speech that makes habitable order in the world. You have to be very careful about what you say.
    Andrew West
    Jordan this throws up a very interesting dilemma for me though as a journalist for 25 years because when I interview someone I want to get truthful answers to my questions but don't questions have to have a good motive if they are to deserve the truth

    Jordan Peterson
    I think if you're being questioned by someone who has questionable motives that it's up to you to discern the motives of the question I tried to react to the degree that you can in keeping with that. Its very difficult I mean believe me I understand What you are saying

    Andrew West
    I mean if I ask a wealthy businessman or woman he was personally know nor his company is known to evade taxes that would otherwise build our shared society and i asked how much money have you got in the bank and how much Taxes haven't you paid I would say that is in the public interest but do I have a right to ask you about your sex life with your wife? I mean isn’t that ...

    Jordan Peterson
    Just because I'm obligated to tell the truth doesn't mean that I don’t have a right to privacy. I mean if you asked me that I could say well that as far as I'm concerned is in the private domain are not relevant to this conversation period and that's the truth. Truth and full disclosure at age at every moment are not the same thing period you can still have boundaries I mean because sometimes the truth is you have no business asking me that question often that's the truth in that situation.

    Andrew West
    So there is regal room here I mean the obvious Example because you deal with the heaviest questions of all in this book, it's Berlin 1940 or Amsterdam 1942 and the amp Nazis knock on your door you don't have enough more Moral obligation to tell them about the Jews in your cellar, do you?

    Jordan Peterson
    i think by the time you in that situation, you've made so many mistakes that you are not in a position where you can make the right decision anymore. You can find yourself in a situation where the best thing that offers itself to you is a lie but what that means is that many things were undone on the pathway that led you there

    Andrew West
    Explain that in concrete terms because I think of the person who standing in front of the gestapo guard lying about the people they are protecting as a moral person who has made moral choices but where the mistakes made along the way in that circumstance period that is a fascinating point that you are making.

    Jordan Peterson
    Well who knows how many million decisions had to remain unmade for the Nazis to gain attain power in Germany. I mean i've watched this over the last year and 1/2 as a society polarizes increasingly its staggering the degree to which people are sufficiently intimidated so they won't stand up and say what they think, nd I mean if you don't stand up and say what do you think you allow your society to corrupt itself around you and you make yourself weak as that corruption process occurs, and then you'll find yourself in a situation where there is no good action, there is no decent action, all you have in front of you is various pathways to Hell. So no the great commentators on the horrors of the horrors of there 20th century certainly Solzhenitsn among them but also people like Victor Frankl, made a very strong case that it was the individual proclivity to abandon responsibility and the truth that paved the way for the domination of totalitarians and then the eventual horrors that accompanied their assent. You can get a long way in the early stages of a movement by just refusing to budge. Its like i'm not doing that. you just see something happening that you think is part of the pathway on the road to perdition and you say i'm not participating in the game and that has to happen early. So many many things went wrong in Europe in the middle of the last century and of course the situation in Holland was the consequence of many many many bad decisions and actions should have been taken far earlier.
    "I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins

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  3. #222
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    So, um, the same person who lies to the Gestapo about the Jews in the cellar is also to blame for the holocaust because of previous lies they've told which caused the holocaust. Cue Peterson fanboys to declare that "no that's not what he's saying". You see, you're just focusing on the iceberg lettuce, but there's also feta cheese in that word salad.

    Oh and as far as gong to hell is concerned, he can't explain whether he means it literally or not until you have read about 20 books which will allow you to understand his position.

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  5. #223
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    He's got the idea that everything is about individual action, i think. Collective action means a collection of individual actions, not collective action as a group, as such. So, if the Nazi's are in power, every individual is to blame for that and you have to take responsibility for it being your fault and if you wanted to change your ways, be authentic, that would require you to give up the jewish family in the cellar because that would be an act of honesty and responsibility, unlike all your previous actions that put the Nazis in power in the first place. That's my interpretation and it does have a certain logic to it if you accept the premise.

    But he's wrong. On the one hand he claims it's all about the individual and not societal but he can only say that because he has been socialised by an ethos of individualism. He's trapped, like all philosophers of selfishness, in an inescapable contradiction.

    It's not the individual's fault. We are not atomised monadic units of individuated thought. The self is first and foremost a social construct and we are subject to influences beyond our control, and victims of power structures we didn't make, the best we can do is form collectives to fight back against a system that is rigged by the powerful for the purpose of retaining power. And a single individual, on their own, can do nothing. At worst, they lose their minds and develop a deplorable moral philosophy that can hint at justifying murder, ie, Jews in the cellar.

    The central problem with JP, in my opinion, is that he's just not very smart.
    What’s the use of a fine house if you haven’t a tolerable planet to put it on - Henry David Thoreau

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  7. #224
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    He gets an utter free pass. Jeremy Corbyn is hounded with accusations of anti-semitism for saying Hamas wants peace, while Peterson says that those Danes or Germans who harbored Jews in the cellars are going to hell for practicing deception to the ruling authority, and he gets a free pass, on the religion and ethics program, of all places.

    The ABC is seriously fucked up
    "I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins

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  9. #225
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    Quote pipbarber said View Post
    He's got the idea that everything is about individual action, i think. Collective action means a collection of individual actions, not collective action as a group, as such. So, if the Nazi's are in power, every individual is to blame for that and you have to take responsibility for it being your fault and if you wanted to change your ways, be authentic, that would require you to give up the jewish family in the cellar because that would be an act of honesty and responsibility, unlike all your previous actions that put the Nazis in power in the first place. That's my interpretation and it does have a certain logic to it if you accept the premise.
    Whichever way I look at it, he is tolerant of the Nazis. There's a subtext of approval for power and authority, whatever form it takes. It reminds me of Trump saying "there are very fine people on both sides". It also reminds me of Trump who will generally pepper any comments he makes with a sentence which appears to say exactly the opposite, allowing his acolytes to claim "no, that's not what he's saying". In the post-truth era, pseudo-truth is like a vinaigrette for your word salad.

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  11. #226
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    Yes he puts in a get out of jail proviso by saying one might have to lie, but then says they're going to hell for it. Its just a sop for neo-nazism.
    "I'm an ape, I'm an African ape and I'm proud of it, and you should be too". Richard Dawkins

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  13. #227
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    Peterson uses a lot of words to avoid giving answers to direct questions. You could show that transcript to a fan of Peterson, someone who sees Peterson as a wordy idiot, someone who sees Peterson as an apologist for the alt-right, and someone who has barely heard of Peterson, and get 4 entirely different interpretations of what he said.

    This is not a sign of intelligence, more the mark of a man of limited intelligence who has developed a knack for sounding smart while saying little that he could be called out on for being right or wrong.

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  15. #228
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    Peterson is a walking, talking "bible". Self-contradictory in every way.
    Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.

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  17. #229
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    I may have misinterpreted his comments, but I believe his statement about Hell is the man made hell which we have arrived at due to our actions and inactions . Not the actual biblical hell. ??
    Spiral out ....

  18. #230
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    Default Re: Jordan Peterson and Matt Dillahunty

    I did not mean to imply that Peterson is a biblical person of any kind [literalist or allegoric], but he is a mystic. His view is that science can't really EXPLAIN anything, and for truth, we have to turn to old legends and myths [not specifically religious, although many are]. His chronic fallacy is "mystery, ergo god, spirituality, myth etc". He harks back to the days when "men were men" etc.
    He will use his training in psychology, etc, to sprout endless streams of techno-word-salad to bamboozle his critics, especially those not up with all the specialist jargon he has at his command. He does not have the intellectual capacity to understand how evolution [cultural or biological] works, and so he posits that complexity means there is an inner, secret meaning to life that only mystics have access too. Despite his qualifications, he is NOT, in any way, shape or form a scientist. He is like Kurt Wise, but with even less intellectual honesty [if that is indeed possible!]. At least Kurt Wise states explicitly and honestly that his beliefs trumps science where there is a conflict. And Dr. Wise is well qualified. He knows his science [geology] he just rejects it in favour of the word of god.
    Peterson is more insidious, because he pretends to be a supporter of science, but he is the exact opposite. He natters on with techno-babble to demonstrate how INADEQUATE science is. He attempts to dismiss science by sounding "sciency". And an amazing number of people get sucked into it, especially those who are scientifically illiterate.
    My respect for Kurt Wise is very weak, but he is a thousand times more honest, in his own deluded way, that Peterson, because of his open rejection of the science, when science and dogma conflict. That deserves a little kudos, IMHO.
    Just stick to the idea that science tests falsifiable hypotheses to destruction.

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